In this episode, hosts Eric Fey and Brianna Lennon speak with Heider Garcia in Dallas County, Texas. Garcia has had a couple of high-profile years – first, being highlighted on “This American Life” for the inclusive and in-depth way he engaged with people who were skeptical of or had questions about the elections process.
Then, after a close result in Tarrant County in 2020, Garcia became the target of accusations of voter fraud, as well as serious threats and racist attacks – including the release of his personal address on social media.
You can read Garcia’s full testimony from 2022’s “Protecting Our Democracy’s Frontline Workers” hearing in front of the U.S. Senate’s Committee on the Judiciary – here.
They spoke about Garcia’s passion for educating voters, about what other election officials can learn from his experiences and what he’s most excited about in his new role in Dallas County, Texas.
High Turnout, Wide Margins Credits:
Managing Editor: Rebecca Smith
Managing Producer: Aaron Hay
Transcription of the episode is as follows:
Heider Garcia: I sometimes put myself in their shoes and wonder how many times I've been wrong about something – thinking I'm right, and all I need is someone to tell me, you know, “If you knew this…”, or “The problem is you don't know that or you don't understand this..”, or “I'm sorry, you've been told this, but here's, here's reality…” right? So, there's that sentiment of empathy, you know, that could be me in any other topic, right?
[High Turnout Wide Margins Introduction]
Eric Fey: Hey everybody, this is Eric Fey. Welcome to another exciting episode of High Turnout Wide Margins. In this episode we're speaking with Heider Garcia, the current election administrator in Dallas County, Texas. At the time of this taping, Heider had left his position in Tarrant County, Texas, as the election administrator, and was working for the Election Assistance Commission. Throughout the episode we explore Heider’s accomplishments in Tarrant County, his decision to ultimately leave Tarrant County, Texas, and his impending move to take on the Election Administrator role in Dallas County. We hope you enjoy it.
Start us off by telling us how you got involved in elections in the first place.
Heider Garcia: So where do I start? I started, I was, I was – how far back do you wanna go? I was born a long time ago in Pennsylvania, life happened, I grew up in Venezuela – my parents were Venezuelans – I went to college there, I got married there. I'm a computer engineer by training, so my first job, my illusion was to be like working for Pixar, right? Now, I'm a horrible artist, so I figured I'd be like the guy developing the software that animators use. That was my plan when I was in my early 20s.
And when I graduated, I got this job with a company. That was the early 2000s – the internet of things happening, right? They're called Smartmatic, and they were wanting to do like smart home devices back then. There wasn't a lot of that. One thing led to another. They got a bid to do elections programming and software, and I was like four months into the company, and so, basically, I started because I shifted to the group that was programming software for voting machines. That was my first big real project in life – “we got to make a voting machine, and you're it, you're in it, you're going to write the software,” but what I learned pretty quickly, guys, is that I wasn't the best at coding, right? Even though I'm supposed to be like a mastermind of coding, I wasn't. I realized, I'm always going to have one of these great, great, great guys being my boss, but I realized I was good with like people, and deployment and projects, right? And kind of being that nerd guy who understands the engineers, but who has the patience to talk to the customers and be the translator between them, right?
So, after many years of that – I enjoyed it a lot, traveled a lot. I got married, I had kids, and then traveling international wasn't that much fun, and so that's when I shifted to the public side. I joke, and I say, “I left the dark side of the Force and came to public service in Placer County, California.” Ryan Ronco, fantastic person, I say extremely underrated, unknown, unappreciated man. He's great. He's such a positive influence in everything I am as an electrical official. He hired me, found my resume, he hired me, and then from there, I just saw the opportunity to take the Elections Administrator position in Tarrant County. Had a fantastic five years, then left, and went to EAC. Now, I've been there for four months, but Dallas County had that opening and, you know, I came back to where I feel – this is my best, you know, on the field, running elections on the ground.
Eric Fey: Heider, I'm curious – what intrigued you about elections kind of in the first place, because a lot of folks that go into election administration come about it through politics, or through public administration in some way, you know, they worked in some other aspects of government, and you, like you said, had more of a technical background and education. So, what was it about it that appealed to you, to get you to stick around?
Heider Garcia: When you're, you know, in your early 20s, and you graduate – it's just the job, the money, right? So, I took the job with a company, I just happen to land in it, but I was also, you know, living in Caracas in Venezuela at the time. Hugo Chavez is starting this, [the] whole nightmare that Venezuela was going through was starting, and the bid the company was awarded was to develop the software for the first presidential recall. It was the first-time people actually tried to vote him out of power, and so, it was really excited for me to feel like, “if we can do our job, we are giving our people a way to vote and kind of get rid of this mess, the peaceful democratic way,” right? So, that was the I want to be in that project, I want to be part of that project, no matter what.
Brianna Lennon: So, for some people listening – they have probably heard your story on This American Life or have heard some of what you dealt with in Tarrant County but given the way that you approach things – in a much more, you know, matter of fact role – you are dealing with, had been dealing with people that are the exact opposite of that. Feel very, very invested. Are very, very interested in how [sic] the outcome is for these elections. What did you find to be the best way to relate and kind of disarm them in working with them?
Heider Garcia: I wouldn't, I wouldn't use the word disarm, right? There are many things. Number one is, this is the job we have to do, I signed up for this, and so, if we don't want to answer questions from the public, we're in the wrong line of work. It's a choice we have to make, right? If you get to the point where you say, “I can't deal with the public,” then maybe this is not the job, right? And I tell myself that all the time. Two, you know, I can also understand how some people may want answers and believe things that they've been told because they've been told things by figures or people they trust, leadership, people in leadership positions. And that is one thing that comes with leadership – is people are putting trust in you, and what you say is going to have an impact, and so, I don't see that as – not all the time, not at first, at least - stubbornness, or denialism, but just as let's sit down and give you facts, right? I think – I, you know, I sometimes put myself in their shoes and wonder how many times I've been wrong about something – thinking I'm right, and all I need is someone to tell me, you know, “If you knew this…”, or “The problem is you don't know that or you don't understand this..”, or “I'm sorry, you've been told this, but here's, here's reality…” right? So, there's that sentiment of empathy, you know, that could be me in any other topic, right? And I think we've seen over the last year, so many things that have been politicized – that probably the three of us could find one where we've been like, “Well, I don't actually know. Someone who I know, I trust told me about that, and I might be going with it?” And it's good to get the facts, right? So, I think it's just that. We owe it as public servants; we owe everyone a chance to be informed. I don't blame anyone for trusting who they see as figures of leadership, but you just have to take the time to, to put the facts in front of them. That is the, that is the science of it, if you will.
Eric Fey: So, to me, you have a very straightforward approach to this. You make it – I think, in my opinion – sound a little bit easier than it might be because I know if anybody listening to this has read about some of the things and some of the lengths you went to in Tarrant County, you know, it was a lot of work and effort to do that education you're talking about. Why do you think more election administrators haven’t approached it the way you have?
Heider Garcia: That's, that's difficult. I – what I can tell you is that a lot more people have than I would have thought. Honestly, when the piece was done, I felt like a lot of people were telling me like, “Wow, what you're doing is, you know, groundbreaking or unique,” and then as I've been to conferences and I've interacted to people, I found a lot of people saying, “Yeah, we're doing that, we're doing that, we're doing that,” right? So, that's a very pleasant surprise that a lot of people are doing it.
I think people who are probably not so on board with it, they just need to realize everything good that has come from it, right? And there are so many success stories. Even if people are still – some groups are actively still trying to undermine confidence in elections and question things and not accepting facts – that doesn't mean we haven't made any progress or we haven't done a good job. I mean, just this week, we had some major events that confirmed again, what we've been saying – elections have been well run, have been transparent, and some of the people who've been saying these things are saying, “Yeah, I'm guilty. I did lie,” right? We're seeing that happen, and it's kind of confirming.
What I would tell people who are probably hesitant to do more, to put the extra effort, the extra resources in, is think about it this way: there is nothing else that can come from this whole process other than you're doing your job and you're doing it right. So, when we went through the forensic audit in Tarrant County, first thing we said was, you know, everybody was up in arms – politicians, you know, “The governor ordered this because of that, it was only because of that, it's unnecessary, it's necessary.” The only thing we said was, “We're ready to help the state in any way they want,” and the first thing we did was sit down with them and say, “What do you need to do your job?”
Why?
Because it was clear once they finished doing their job and they scrutinized everything and, you know, flip every stone, and look at every document, they're going to get to what they inevitably got, which was a report that said Tarrant County does a quality transparent election. So, if you're wondering, why do it? Even from a selfish perspective, you know, they're just going to get to the conclusion that you're doing your job, and you're doing it right, and they're going to reinforce what we've been saying from day one – “We don't play games, we don't do politics, we just run elections, and we stay out of it,” right? So that would be my – rather than assuming how many people have or haven't – if you're still hesitant, if you wonder if it makes sense to invite people to Public Test, to put documents on the website, to create positions whether they're part time or full time to process public records request, you know, all these things that have been done. It pays off. It does, it really does, and, in the long run, you know, you will see positive results from all of that.
Brianna Lennon: Have you had any instances – because I could, I can hear in the back of my mind, as you're saying that other people saying, “Well, I don't want people following me around and then misconstruing what they're seeing,” or, you know, maybe there is an honest mistake that happens, and it gets blown out of proportion and I don't want that kind of, I don't want the risk of that happening here.” Did you have any instances where somebody was talking, like, in your office talking about something or following around, and there was an error? And how you handled that situation? If you didn't, that's fine, too. I just am curious.
Heider Garcia: Yeah, yeah. I mean, these things happen, and I'm glad I created sort of that culture – my own staff had that mindset, you know, “We don't want them to see, what if it goes wrong?” And my mindset was always, “Then we show them it was wrong. What's the problem?” And then we show them how we correct it, and we show them the records and we show them that, you know, that's true, that we're not trying to hide anything. The problem is, even if you're doing it, even if someone says, you know, “I'm not going to show them this because it's going to create doubt,” the long-term harm of you sometimes choos[ing] to hide things is a lot worse.
You know, everything – we used to say, where I grew up in Venezuela, “Entre cielo y tierra no hay nada oculto.” Nothing's hidden between earth and the sky. Everything's out in the open, right? So, that doesn't really help, right? Eventually, I would actually do, what I was saying is the mindset we created was, “Oh, that didn't go according to plan. Find the watchers and bring them over right now. Bring them over. Let's show them. Let's not solve it without them here.”
Why?
“Because this is going to be kind of an exception from the regular process.” Even though we have a regular process to deal with this – 99% of things went this way and this one exception, which we're going to handle with the, you know, ballot duplication process. 1% of balance goes that way. We want them to see it, we want them to understand.
“This poll worker didn't print the tapes.” Call the watchers, and let’s tell them, “Hey, here's someone who made a mistake. They didn't print the tape, we're gonna print it. So, when you see the tape and it has, you know, it says Printed at 11:30 p.m. instead of 7:30 p.m. at the polling place. Now, you know why? And guess what? You were here? You saw us do it,” right?
So, no, I would say the complete opposite. Now, some things, the other part you asked – people misconstruing what you say or people following or hearing, you know, partial conversations or taking them out of context – what I would say is one question that I always ask people who were, you know, challenging what we did, or what we do as elections administrators – at least me personally, I would say, “Tell me one time, I've lied to you. To me one time I've lied to you.” And that's a powerful question to be able to ask and look at someone and say, “Hey, you don't have an answer. You may not agree with me, but I've never lied to you.” Because when those things happen, and someone tells you, “Hey, well, you know, Johnny said that you said that you don't reconcile here and there.” It's not what I said. Here's what we do. Here's what I said. Here's what I think. [Indecipherable] Sometimes I’ll come to you with things you might have said, you know, “Last year in the municipal election someone was here, and they heard you say…” I don't know if I said that, but let me tell you the real processes, right? That has a lot of value, and it's reinforced a lot when you show your vulnerable side, right? I go back to, “Even when I make mistakes, I show you. I don't hide things from you.” So, you know.
[High Turnout Wide Margins Mid-break]
Eric Fey: So, all that said, and to one point you made, which I think is really important to say, first off – I do think, especially since 2020, a lot more election administrators are going the extra length to show folks how things work in the office. To, you know, invite the public observers, challengers, people like that, but you, I think, were a little more high profile in your efforts in Tarrant County, whether you meant that to happen or not, It just it transpired that way, and you did all the things you just talked about, and I'm afraid the lesson that other election ministers will take away was that, “Oh, Heider, he was, you know, everybody saw what he was doing, it was very admirable, a new guy got elected who didn't like it, and then Heider was gone. So, what's the lesson for us?” What would you say to that?
Heider Garcia: Well, I would say it has nothing to do – right? – with that. Expect me to have the same approach, and I did mention that as I was being interviewed with the Dallas commission, I mean, I expect those principles of transparency, accessibility, of making myself available, of being out there, just giving people facts – that's going to continue the same. I've said that when I get to Dallas, I've got to get my feet wet and learn the Dallas way because – true, and I think you guys know this, you don't just jump from one county to the next and say, “Wash, rinse, repeat.” Realities are different, but the principles behind them are the same. So, I guess the best way to answer your question, Eric is – I didn't quit because that wasn't working. I quit because of one person and one person only. I've said, the only thing I've said about that meeting is: I did not like what I heard in that meeting. I don't think that is what you ask for from an elections official, and so I had a choice to make. I think we all do all the time, and so, I said, you know, “I'm not your guy. You could find someone else who likes that or thinks that that is the way things should be run, but that's not me.” But I would have stayed another 20 years in Tarrant County, and I would have kept doing this, and I think we were making a lot of progress. We have people who, again, started off as really skeptics, and they were, by the time I left, really active members in the Ballot Board, as election judges, just out in the community saying, “No, no, that's not how things work,” right? So, they were understanding, and they were helping explain to people all these things. I don't know that if I had done things differently, this wouldn't have been the outcome anyway, and I'll leave it at that. I think there was, there was a reason that meeting happened that had nothing to do with being accessible or answering the questions to the public.
Eric Fey: Moving in a little more micro than that – what you're doing, moving to Dallas County, is the kind of thing that would, frankly, frighten me because the office I lead now, I worked in as, you know, as an entry level employee years ago. I grew up in the community where I work, I know the lay of the land, and I feel very comfortable here, and, you know, would feel uncomfortable going somewhere else. So, what are the like more micro things, like the kind of advice you would give to any other election administrator that would move from one jurisdiction to another? Because I know a lot of them have overtime, you know, what are those first things you have to focus on going to a new a new office?
Heider Garcia: Be like Jon Snow, and just say it: “I know nothing,” right? Humble yourself, get to your new place, understand the staff – I mean, this is pretty much standard for any professional who shifts companies or anything, right? But there's a lot more of the identity of the community involved. We, one of the commissioners here in Tarrant, when I resigned, he said something that I love: “Elections are political and polarizing by nature, but the administration of them should not be.” And while we are not, we work very close to politicians, so it's important to get to know those elected [officials] around you to understand the dynamics. In some states, you have – like here, people ask an Elections Administrator in Texas, “Who's your boss?” I’ve got like 10. There's the Commissioner's Court. There's the Elections Commission. There’s the party chairs, you know, and you list them, yeah, it's a lot. In some other states, you have one elected, right? Like when I was the Elections Manager in California, Ryan Ronco was the elected and I worked for him.
And so, just understanding that – Who gives you the direction? What the priorities are? Some counties like to invest a lot in outreach, some counties think that's not being fiscally conservative and would rather invest in infrastructure than in outreach, and so, detaching yourself from what you would think or prefer, right? We're not policymakers. You want to make policy, run for office, be the elected to make policy, but when you're coming in to be the administrative side of things, then you need to understand those elected. That's the first big one, or the second one.
First, get to know your staff.
Second, get to know your elected officials and your community and their priorities, and I guess the third one, I would say is, unless you're extremely certain of what it is, and it's like a surgical move – I'm gonna go in and I've got to change poll books, write an RFP for an inventory system, you've done it, you know it, it's pretty transparent to the outside world – learn before you try anything. I don't, I don't see myself changing anything drastically in Dallas, probably in all of ‘24. Just to see it, you know, before you get graded. Sometimes – especially, maybe in Texas, for me, would be a little easier because, again, I know the Texas law and a lot of that, but if I were moving to North Dakota, I'd be like, “Oh, heck no. We’re running ‘24 smooth and quiet, and then we'll figure out what we're gonna do.”
Brianna Lennon: What part are you looking forward to the most? For next year?
Heider Garcia: I don't know. I don't know. Again, I don't take this as some sort of challenge, opportunity to, you know, win a trophy, or prove myself or anything like that, right? I just want to go and do a good job and help carry the county through what we know is going to be – and I'm intentionally going to start using that word instead of “tough.” A busy year – but I think just helping people get through this, and if I hear more people saying like, “We understand now,” that's a win. That's our main, we don't have to reinvent the wheel, right? Mathematically, it can't be any more round. We just have to make sure it moves, keeps rolling, right? So, Dallas County has a process that works, has a team that has proved that it can do their job – at least that's what I hear from Michael, right? No, seriously, even from other people in Texas, they run a good ship there.
So I'm just excited of putting myself in there, being up to them. I think also respect for the team is important, right? It's not just, “Oh, I'm coming in the guy from the podcast or whatever,” it’s like, “no, no, no, I have to earn my place there, too. I have to earn their respect as a team,” and so, I'm excited about that part, I guess, that would probably be my – now that I'm thinking about it, that would be something exciting, you know, to get there and within three, four months feel like, “Okay, I’ve earned my place here. Not just because some committee voted me in, but because my team said ‘okay, we’ll allow it.’”
Brianna Lennon: Was there anything that you wanted to touch on?
Heider Garcia: No, I mean, I'll circle back to the first part of the interview, right ? To close it up that way because that's probably the one thing that people associate with me is the podcast and the patience and dealing with people and “how do we handle conflict in the post-2020 era” and all of that. And one thing that I really like to tell people is, you know, “Why, why do it, why have the patience?” The reality is that if you look, I mean, the United States right now, there's so much, everything's politicize, everything is divisive, everything's confrontational, right? And one thing that I hear a lot of people say is, “We need leadership that will bring us together.”
Well, I’ve got news for everyone – people aren’t going to start being confrontational with each other, neighbors are not going to start being confrontational, families are not going to start being confrontational because someone sits at a big chair somewhere. It starts with us, and I think that's where we – as local officials – have that responsibility to say, you know, “Then let's do it. Let's show that we can work together. Let's show that we can agree to disagree.” That has been lost for so long, right? It used to be that you could sit with a friend who, you know, one of you is pro-guns and the other one isn’t and it's like, “Okay, we either accept that or we just don't talk about it, but you know, we're friend. Our friendship or relationship is above that.” And same thing with any other topic, right? And I think we've lost a lot of that, so I'd like to probably hammer down that message, for everyone – that is the true motivation for it. It’s that responsibility.
Things are not going to change because somebody tells us to change, we want to bridge division, we want to come closer, we want to just come together – then it starts with each one of us in our little in a little turf and with little actions.
We want to change? We're not gonna change because someone tells us to. We're gonna change because we want to change, and we should be able to change if that's what we want. So, that's my message. That's my, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Laughter
Eric Fey: A good message to end on for sure.
Brianna Lennon: You've been listening to High Turnout Wide Margins, a podcast that explores local election administration. I'm your host, Brianna Lennon, alongside Eric Fey. A big thanks to KBIA for making this podcast possible. Our Managing Editor is Rebecca Smith. Our Managing Producer is Aaron Hay. This has been High Turnout Wide Margins. Thanks for listening.
