SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
In the real world, we all move through time together. Things happen in a linear order. In the movies, they don't have to. Take the recent horror blockbuster "Weapons."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WEAPONS")
SCARLETT SHER: (As Narrator) This is a true story that happened right here in my town. A lot of people die in a lot of really weird ways in this story.
DETROW: These days, it is pretty common for a movie to have competing narratives, for the big story to zoom backward and forward in time and replay key moments from the point of view of different characters. But this approach was revolutionary 75 years ago when the Japanese film "Rashomon" came out. We wanted to dig into that film's legacy through the many films it has made possible. So to do that, we brought in two of NPR's biggest film nerds, Marc Rivers and Ryan Benk. Hey, guys.
RYAN BENK, BYLINE: Hey.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Scott. Hey, Ryan.
DETROW: So, here is the thing. I know what "Rashomon" is. I have heard of the Rashomon effect, but I will say, I have never actually seen the movie. And in that sense, I feel like I'm actually like a lot of listeners here, right?
RIVERS: Totally. You know, it's the same way, like, I haven't read one page of "Catch-22." Like, we all know what catch-22 means, right? It's like, it's one of those words that's kind of entered the popular culture or the cultural lexicon. But, yeah, the movie "Rashomon" is from director Akira Kurosawa, came out in 1950. At the start of the movie, you have these three strangers, they're seeking shelter from this torrential downpour under the kind of ruins of a gatehouse. And they just returned from giving evidence in a trial about a samurai's murder. And at the trial, you have the wife of the samurai who may or may not have been raped. You have the bandit who committed the murder. And also the samurai - the dead samurai himself kind of gives his testimony through, like, this medium. You know, it's very kind of fantastical.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "RASHOMON")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, speaking Japanese).
RIVERS: And each person at the trial recounts what happened, and the movie depicts those scenes. But you realize pretty soon that their testimonies contradict each other. What you're seeing may or may not have actually happened. And you never really find out what happened. You know, if you're watching and you're asking, you know, who's telling the truth? The answer is nobody.
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: Nobody is fully telling the truth. And that's kind of what the movie's about - the way that truth can remain elusive because of the subjectivity of the way we experience it.
DETROW: How much of an impact did this movie have?
RIVERS: You know, it's really hard to understand the full effect this movie had on the culture because it's been so absorbed. But this movie really kind of became a kind of trendsetter for movies about unreliable narrators, and it jump-started Kurosawa's career. He was 40 years old at the time, because he had made movies for a while, but this movie kind of turned him into this global force. It also essentially introduced Japanese cinema to the West. It was the first winner from Japan of the foreign film Oscar. And it just has all these offspring. You kind of - you can see the kind of "Rashomon," like, storyline in not only movies, but you can see it, you know, TV shows. "Frasier's" done an episode on it, "The X Files," "It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia."
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "IT'S ALWAYS SUNNY IN PHILADELPHIA")
DANNY DEVITO: (As Frank Reynolds) Listen, we're trying to piece together a night, and we need some guidance.
ARTEMIS PEBDANI: (As Artemis) I don't remember that night.
DEVITO: (As Frank Reynolds) I didn't tell you which night yet.
RIVERS: It's just gone everywhere.
BENK: Even, like, "The Night Of" is a perfect example of that.
RIVERS: Yeah, "The Night Of" or, like, that Showtime show, "The Affair."
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE AFFAIR")
VICTOR WILLIAMS: (As Detective Jeffries) Mr. Solloway, I'd like to ask how this whole mess got started.
DOMINIC WEST: (As Noah Solloway) When I look back, I can't tell you why it happened.
RIVERS: And it was also just a part of this growing force of art house cinema that was going on at the time, where we had these movies of ideas, where they were just as much kind of philosophical statements as they were, you know, entertainments. And this one - this is a very pessimistic philosophical statement about humanity.
DETROW: OK, Ryan, we've started to do this, but when you think about "Rashomon," the Rashomon effect, what are one or two movies that really jump out to you as, like, iconic, important movies that built off this idea?
BENK: Well, I mean, I don't know about iconic, but ones that I thought of pretty immediately - I mean, there are so many to choose from. James Mangold's "Identity," which is this 2003 whodunit. This group of 10 travelers, they're all washed out off the road under a torrential downpour and end up taking shelter in a dilapidated motel...
RIVERS: Sounds familiar.
BENK: On the side of the road - right? - very familiar setup.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "IDENTITY")
RAY LIOTTA: (As Rhodes) You the manager? Officer Rhodes, transporting a prisoner here, but the roads are all flooded, and I could use a room.
BENK: And slowly, but surely, each one of them begins to disappear. And while this happens, they're all relaying the stories of how they got there, and these stories, you're not really entirely sure if they're true or not. There's a big twist at the end that really makes this - sets this apart from the movie "Rashomon." But - and I know it's been more than 20 years since it came out, but it's still worth a watch, I think, so I'm just not going to give it away the ending.
DETROW: That's so generous of you.
BENK: (Laughter) Yeah, right?
RIVERS: We don't spoil on NPR. No spoilers here (ph).
BENK: Listen, we don't. We don't do that, you know?
DETROW: Can I point something out, though? This is like - this is hard to pull off, and many people try it...
RIVERS: Oh, yeah.
DETROW: ...Which means many people do not pull it off.
RIVERS: Many fail.
BENK: Oh, yes.
RIVERS: I think a lot of movies don't know how to pull it off. And I think it kind of exposes the scenes of the story. It's kind of like it's calling attention to itself. It's calling attention to the kind of design. Attention with a movie like this is - I think those multi-narratives want you to kind of be thinking about...
BENK: Right.
RIVERS: ...The presence of some higher power, the presence of God. But when you're watching a bad one, you're more so thinking about the presence of a really corny director and writer...
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: ...You know (laughter)?
BENK: I mean, I - you have this - these, like, early 2000s movies with these bloated casts where they try to put a picture of each one of these bankable actors on the front of the DVD cover...
RIVERS: Oh, yeah.
BENK: ...Like "Love Actually," like "Valentine's Day."
RIVERS: I don't even know why you're bringing that stuff (ph) into this.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "VALENTINE'S DAY")
JAMIE FOXX: (As Kelvin Moore) Valentine's Day is about anger, disappointment...
HECTOR ELIZONDO: (As Edgar) Love.
KATHY BATES: (As Susan) Romance.
ANNE HATHAWAY: (As Liz) Mating.
PATRICK DEMPSEY: (As Dr. Harrison Copeland) Discretion.
JESSICA ALBA: (As Morley Clarkson) Sparkly.
BENK: The reason? Those are all, to me, examples of where this goes too far, where this becomes more about look at all the names that we can fit into something, look at all the storylines that we can fit into something. What you end up with is just an incredibly thin narrative. And the entire point of watching the movie then becomes sitting in front of the TV and being like, you know, like the Leonardo DiCaprio meme.
RIVERS: You're like, spot that actor or spot that...
BENK: Yeah, spot that actor - like, oh, wait, look, that's Jack Black. Oh, isn't that great, you know? And, you know, it becomes less about what the story is and more about the format, almost completely about the format.
DETROW: I just want to say, this is a safe space at the moment for people who love "Love Actually," and we will come back to that. We've done it before. We'll do it later. That is not the conversation today.
BENK: (Laughter).
RIVERS: That is not the conversation.
DETROW: And I'm just saying it's a neutral zone.
RIVERS: Fair, fair fair.
DETROW: OK. We've gone through the bloat. We've gone through the too far, the strain. Let's end with this. What are a couple of movies that emulate this effect that you feel like work especially well, Ryan?
BENK: I'm going to have to say "Anatomy Of A Fall," which is just this...
RIVERS: Oh, yeah.
BENK: ...Absolutely fantastic courtroom drama, which also examines the strained marriage and what that can do to a child that's part of that family.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ANATOMY OF A FALL")
SAMUEL THEIS: (As Samuel Maleski) You're a monster, even Daniel says it with his own words.
SANDRA HULLER: (As Sandra Voyter) You take that back. You take it back.
THEIS: (As Samuel Maleski) He's told me countless times how hard you are. Do you know that?
HULLER: (As Sandra Voyter) He's telling you what you want to hear. He can feel your guilt, and he's trying to reassure you. Don't you see that?
THEIS: (As Samuel Maleski) You...
HULLER: (As Sandra Voyter) You've never stopped feeling guilty about him.
THEIS: (As Samuel Maleski) You're cold hearted.
BENK: The movie basically is about the murder or possibly accidental death of a husband of a famous writer, and this famous writer is then trying to plead their case in court. And as they're talking, you're seeing all of these series of flashbacks from both the child, from the perspective of the husband, from the perspective of the wife and even seeing a little bit kind of through the eyes of their pet dog, the seeing-eye dog...
RIVERS: I think the dog did it.
BENK: ...For the child. (Laughter) You think the dog did it?
RIVERS: Yeah.
BENK: It not only gives you an ambiguity about the truth, but it gives you a moral ambiguity. And I think that that's what kind of makes it different and sort of elevates this Rashomon effect.
RIVERS: I think that moral ambiguity, I think, is, like, so crucial, to the best examples of these kind of movies. And I think also along those lines, I think about this Iranian film from 2011 called "A Separation."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "A SEPARATION")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, non-English language spoken).
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character, non-English language spoken).
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, non-English language spoken).
RIVERS: This is by Asghar Farhadi. It was the first Iranian film to win best foreign film at the Oscars. And it starts out as this divorce drama, but then that leads to this terrible incident that kind of spirals out of control. And then all of a sudden, what starts out is this kind of, like, very small, domestic drama becomes this, like, wider kind of panoramic social drama that kind of gets you this on-the-ground look at Iranian society. And, like, this movie was very much about religion versus secularity, traditionalism versus modernity, and, you know, men versus women. And while you're watching this, you know, you just feel the ground shifting underneath each character. As you're watching, you're always rethinking how you feel about these characters. You're never on sure footing. And like the best of these movies, it reveals something about the frailties of human nature.
DETROW: That's NPR's Marc Rivers and Ryan Benk. Thanks to the both of - you're both very reliable narrators to me, so thanks for coming by.
BENK: (Laughter).
RIVERS: Thank you, Scott.
BENK: I appreciate that, Scott.
RIVERS: We try.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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