In this episode, hosts Brianna Lennon and Eric Fey speak to Gabriella Cázares-Kelly, the Recorder in Pima County, Arizona. This her second appearance on the podcast — her first being five years ago in Season 1.
They spoke about how things have changed, what Cázares-Kelly has learned in her five plus years in the position, and about what’s making her hopeful about the future of American elections.
High Turnout, Wide Margins Credits:
Managing Editor: Rebecca Smith
Managing Producer: Aaron Hay
Associate Producer: Katie Quinn
Digital Producer: Mark Johnson
Transcription of the episode is as follows:
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: I think just the amount of public scrutiny. I kept, like, waiting for it to kind of dissipate and go back to what I expected to be normal, and it just hasn't, and I don't think it's ever going to. I think this is the new reality of what it is to be an election officer in the United States.
[High Turnout Wide Margins Introduction]
Eric Fey: Hey everybody! Welcome to another super exciting episode of High Turnout Wide Margins. My name is Eric Fey, Director of Elections in St. Louis County, Missouri. I'm here with my co-host —
Brianna Lennon: Brianna Lennon, County Clerk in Boone County, Missouri.
Eric Fey: And today our guest is — Gabriella, you want to go ahead and introduce yourself?
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: S-keg Taṣ [A Tohono O'odham greeting]. I'm Gabriella Cázares-Kelly, Pima County Recorder in Southern Arizona.
Eric Fey: Awesome! Thank you so much for doing this with us today, and you are a second-time guest on the podcast, and as the several regular listeners we have know, we normally ask folks to talk about how they got into the election space initially. We've already asked you that question, so I guess maybe I'm more curious — the first time we had you on, you are relatively new in the recorder role. How has the reality of being a recorder now for a number of years compared to the expectation you had when you initially ran for this position?
Laughter
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: Was that your question of, like, “Why did you want this?”
Eric Fey: Well, you take it however you want.
Laughter
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: Yeah, no, I've been asking myself that every once in a while. I think, you know, elections were different prior to 2020, and I ran in 2020 and became recorder in 2021. And there used to be off years — that's like a thing of the past. We've had elections every single year since I've been recorder. I have not experienced anything like that, and I think the scrutiny — I ran for this really quiet, sleepy administrative office, and within the time frame of just my election alone, it became like the hot, one of the hottest races. I went from explaining what a reporter is to then having to talk about the nitty gritty within the same election cycle — it was so wild.
I think just the amount of public scrutiny — I kept, like, waiting for it to kind of dissipate and go back to what I expected to be normal, and it just hasn't, and I don't think it's ever going to. I think this is the new reality of what it is to be an election officer in the United States. And, you know, I didn't realize how much of a spokesperson I was going to have to be, how much media I was going to have to do, or just how big of a public face I would be.
So, like, I get recognized in the streets, which I think is just wild. I was at a graduation, going into a convocation, and, you know, going through the metal detector, and the security guard stops me and says, "Hey, you're the county something.” “Yeah, the county recorder,” and they're like, "Yeah, I see you on TV,” and so, people say things like that to me all the time, and it just, you know, nobody knows what the treasurer or the assessor looks like, so it's just a really different experience than what I was expecting.
Brianna Lennon: So, from your personal background, and I know that you have taught — you have comfort speaking to large groups of people, educating people on things, and making sure that everybody understands things. But that's not always the case for people that serve in these roles. What kind of skills do you think — now that I think there's lots of conversations within our field about what kind of skills you need to succeed in this role and all of that, and you said you hadn't really expected what it would turn into — so, what have you drawn from, in your experience, to be successful?
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: Um. Well, even the first week that I was in office, I had reporters just kind of clamoring, I mean, we had so many media requests the first week. I didn't even have my computer set up. I didn't know the bathrooms were in my whole building, And still the media was asking for accountability, and so, I was having to talk about things that I hadn't been involved in. So, I wasn't an administrator of the 2020 election cycle, but then we had cyber ninjas and these audits happening in Maricopa County, and it just — the pressure was relentless. And so, being able to acknowledge the work that was being done and to really be able to back up the system, you know, the previous recorder, I can't speak on their behalf, but I can say our staff is highly trained. I can say that we, you know, all of those types of things, and, like, having to learn all of the talking points — I think that's something that's really important.
And I also recognize that sometimes a real explanation isn't going to give somebody the satisfaction that they're looking for. Sometimes you're going to be talking to people who don't want to acknowledge fact, truth, reality, and so, you really have to pick your battles and decide which ones you want to address. And, for me, it's anything that is going to impact the voter. You know, conspiracy theorist — that's a small group of people that are making a lot of noise. But when it comes down to it, like, “How is the voter going to be able to access the information they need to actually participate in the election?” So, listening, patience, being able to bite one's tongue, but also being able to call it out when it needs to be called out.
For, you know, somebody like me, I'm an elected recorder. So, I'm an elected election official and that's you know that varies throughout the country. Some people are appointed. Some people are elected. As an elected, I am able to state my opinion, and, you know, it is a nonpartisan job when I'm working I’m not expressing my personal opinion on things outside of my office, but I am making decisions and taking stances, especially on legislation. I'm being very much an advocate for being able to communicate the concerns that I have regarding legislation.
Eric Fey: So, you mentioned that almost immediately upon taking office, there was pretty intense media interest, public scrutiny in your role and what was going on in your office and across the state of Arizona as it relates to elections. You probably had to kind of put that fire out, so to speak, pretty immediately, but since then, a good amount of time has elapsed. But you said the scrutiny continues, the public interest continues — how have you adapted and strategized in ways to respond to all those things? I mean, now that you've had a little time to breathe and know what to expect in terms of that scrutiny.
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: I think I've really changed the way that I react to, you know, who is asking these questions. First of all, like, what is the audience that is asking for this accountability? Is it the everyday voter? Is it people who are committed to voter access? Or is it people who are specifically trying to disrupt? And I think that makes a big difference for me.
Also, I need to look at the statistics. I need to look at the numbers. So, if we have a number of complaints — people can complain about anything. People do complain about anything — and so, I really have to think about what specifically they're complaining about, whether or not it actually impacts their access and violates their rights, or is it just a complaint? Is it just a convenience, or is it just, you know, whatever? And I want to know the numbers. So, I'm asking my staff, like, “Are we getting 10 complaints about this, or is it 150?” Because that makes a difference to, you know, how we're going to respond to that. Does this need a media release? Is it something that we're going to stop everything and write out a thing, or is it something that we can easily just send a link — “Here’s a link because we've already answered this question on our website.”
And so, I think now that I've had more time, often I can take a minute, I can sit with it for a second, think about how it's going to impact, and then sometimes, like, I'll think, “Oh, we absolutely have to get a media release out,” and then I start talking it through, you know, walking it through with my team, and it's like, “You know what? I think if we just — let's just send a statement,” or “Let's, you know, let's dial it back” because then that becomes a distraction, and now people are concerned about, you know, something that's happening in Maricopa County that has nothing to do with us, and we're putting out a media release when we could be putting out a media release about “Here's where you go to vote. Here's what you need,” and, you know, so I really have to think about those before I jump in, and being in this position now, I feel like I'm a lot more experienced to be able to do that.
[High Turnout Wide Margins Midbreak]
Brianna Lennon: So, Arizona has a very small contingent of election officials — I think, maybe, even the smallest for the size of the state that you have because your counties are just so large.
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: Wow, I didn't realize that.
Brianna Lennon: So, have you noticed — I mean, as these things have happened, in the time that you've been in office, have you noticed, has it brought recorders together, election directors together? Has it been something that you've leaned on each other for, or is it still pretty, you know, “We all kind of stay clear of Maricopa. They can handle themselves” type of situation?
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: It’s so interesting because Maricopa and Pima County — so my county and Maricopa — are the two largest in the state, and, I think, Maricopa has something like 51% of all voters, or 54% and then Pima County has like 14. But our next highest is something like, you know, seven or something like that. And so, we have the two largest — we're the two largest voting locations or jurisdictions in the state, and we have our own voter database systems that tie in with the remaining 13 counties. So, they use a system called AVID. It's the Access of Voter Information Database for Arizona, and we have an interface that interacts with those counties, but we have a separate system. And so, we come together all the time. We have weekly meetings, biweekly meetings about different aspects, mostly elections, but also on the recording side of the house, as well, because we do property recordation, and so, that's also a big part of you know our everyday work. And so, we connect all the time, especially the reporters, and then the elections directors, they have their own association, and then we interact a lot, and we just individually have to work — and it depends on the county. I mean, there has been a lot of changeover. There have been a lot of new reporters.
One of the shifts that I've seen — when I first came into office in 2021, there was a really big conversation about nonpartisan conversations, like, every single meeting, people would, somebody would say, "Well, we're nonpartisan, so” and then you know continue on with the meeting. And, in Arizona, there are only four Democratic recorders, and the rest — 11 others — are Republicans. It's actually Republican-led and women-led, but I have seen a shift away from the nonpartisan conversation, and really an acknowledgement of a political party platform. And so, you'll even hear, you know, recorders say something like, "Well, I understand why we wouldn't do that, but my party won't.” Or “I'm already thinking,” you know, “from what my party is going to say,” and, you know, like, some of it is like leaning into conspiracy theory, and so, even if they themselves are not a conspiracy theorist, you know, they're just like, “Well, we can't do that because, even though this thing might be beneficial for for others, my party is going to have a problem with it,” you know? “That’s too much of a change,” or, you know, something like that. It's somewhat frustrating, and I think we've seen a little bit more of that, and it's become a little bit more extreme in the last couple of, in this last election cycle.
And we've even had, you know, new recorders who are — I haven't even had a new conversation with one of the new recorders. They've only been in office for like a month or two, and right before an election. So, I haven't had a one-on-one conversation with them, and I haven't seen them in any of the meetings. So, like, just the turnover has been really huge.
Eric Fey: We talked recently with the president and, I think, past-president of the Colorado County Clerks Association on this podcast, and they talked a little bit about this dynamic of the turnover of some members of their association — well, there was one pretty infamous example there in Colorado of one of their members actually breaking the law and going to prison for it — and so, they have, as an association, tried to pull together, craft messaging as an association to respond to some of these public questions about what's going on with some of its members. Has your association, being relatively small, have you all been able to strategize a little bit and craft a unified message, or is that too difficult in the current situation?
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: That's a really interesting question. I'm the secretary treasurer of our association, and our president has been really, she's been a great advocate, I think, on behalf of our association, and we have had unifying messages when we are running into issues, and it feels relentless, you know? Maybe it might be a piece of legislation, or, you know, recently there was the post office rule change concern. You know, we've had some questions to the Secretary of State or the AG's office regarding lawsuits or different things like that, and we have shared a lot of similar concerns. But I wouldn't say we're a unified group. Just, I don't think we're, I think here in Arizona, in particular, we're very conscientious that anything that happens in one county impacts the other county, but we really try to focus on the separate administration for each jurisdiction that it is county — so, it's like really county emphasized. And so, you know, we can't make one another do anything, but we are all, we have, I think, we have done a pretty good job about all talking about working within the confines of the law, you know, whenever people ask me, especially if there's concerns, especially if they’ve been in the news — about my colleagues — you know, I'm always telling them, like, “There are really good workers in that office who are protecting your right to vote.” They have, you know, people who've been working for for years in this field, and even with a new recorder — we're still limited on what we can or can't do, and for the most part, you know, we are all committed to that, and we have to be because we submit our reports to the Secretary of State's office. We, you know, we have to provide this data, like, I don't think there's an opportunity for people to kind of just go off the rails. Whether or not they say things that are inappropriate or embarrassing — that's different. But when you're talking about, like, who's the actual staff member who's doing the data entry on your voter registration form, like, they're not impacted by your politics in any way. They're doing the work, they're working. So, I think we've done a really good job of being able to communicate that here in Arizona. But, really, I don't feel like we've, I don't — as you're saying that, I'm like, “I don't think we've ever put anything out, like, ‘Hey, we're unified. We got this.’” A lot of times, it's like, “Hey, we don't like what you're thinking of doing. You need to stop that.” I think we've come together more on that kind of thing because I do just feel like we've been under a relentless attack of, and, you know, I'm sure it's happening in your states, as well.
Brianna Lennon: What is it that keeps motivating you to keep showing up and doing this work? Because for everything that we just talked about, it sounds relentless and anxiety-producing. But you signed up to do it again, so?
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: I did. I'm in my second term, and we don't have term limits in Arizona, and so, we'll see how long I decide to do this. But no, I love it. It is, you know, there's a big chunk of it that is really really difficult, and it's very taxing and exhausting, but there's also a really huge chunk of that that is really beautiful. Like one of the things that I got to do — literally right before our primary election here in Arizona, was I got to be the person who delivered a ballot drop box to the Pascua Yaqui Reservation? The Pascua Yaqui Reservation had been a place where the previous reporter had closed their early voting site, and so, there had been a two-year fight for them to have it reopened again, and it was very huge. It was a huge lawsuit, and, you know, that's a community that has experienced disenfranchisement and intentional acts of violence from the United States government.
The government has not been kind to Native Americans, as we know, and so we, you know, we didn't have the right to vote until 1948 — we didn't have the right to register to vote until 1948, and, of course, you know, none of those protections until 1965 with the Voting Rights Act, and then [phrase spoken in the language of the Tohono O'odham tribe], my grandmother didn't speak English, so she didn't have rights to a language translator until 1970 — mid 1970s. That's a lot, that's a lot of disenfranchisement that we as the government have to atone for, and so, being able to go and deliver a ballot drop box to make early voting more accessible in this community that literally, in 2000, was fighting for an early voting site, is a really big deal, and I was out there, and the maintenance worker was on their hands and knees, and they were like, you know, drilling into — it's 110 degrees outside. It's hot, and you know they're working to do that, and the worker's daughter came outside and she was wearing a “Pascua Yaqui Vote” shirt, and the two of them — I'm like, “Let's take a picture by this because your dad just installed this, and we're really excited about it.” And I got to bring that joy and that excitement to what I essentially consider my community — their two reservations, Tohono O'odham and Pascua Yaqui. I'm from the Tohono O'odham Nation, but we are so intertribal that it's my community. I consider it my community, as well. And so, to be able to have that kind of access, or to go into a school and to talk about the work that I do, or to to talk to young people about leadership and going into the university, and being able to talk about the ways that I have specifically addressed systemic white supremacy, or the ways that we try to make, just, our office more accessible to more people, and the importance of their vote — I see the worth in that. I think it is important. I think it's a movement. I think it's the beginning of our country healing, you know, because we're working against generations and generations of genocide and and colonization and all of these racist, overt racism and to be able to do that, it's important work and it's something that I care very deeply about. So, we're here and we'll continue to be here as long as the people want me here.
Brianna Lennon: I was just going to ask, Gabriella, if there's anything that you want to say or include or that we missed?
Gabriella Cázares-Kelly: I'm feeling really optimistic because we've been able to see so many positive changes in my administration. I have a few people who keep wanting me to compare, you know, statistics from 2024 to 2020 or 2026, and they want to see these numbers, and, you know, it's so interesting because a lot of times I'll have to say something like, "Yeah, but we didn't have this then.”
So, in 2020, we didn't have vote centers, you know, we had precinct based voting. In 2022, we had vote centers. In 2024, we had more locations. In 2026, we had ballot drop boxes, you know?
And so, being able to talk about all of the changes, and people are really seeing the changes, and they're more involved and they care more about, you know, what's happening — both good and bad, right?
Laughter
Some of it is good because they're more excited about it, they're more interested, they're more knowledgeable about, you know, what actually happens to their ballot and how it's a fair process. And then, there's also the the additional scrutiny, but I feel like it has really thrust the elections realm into the spotlight, and, you know, because I'm a squeaky wheel and I'm in the news and I'm, you know, a prominent person now within the county — which again, this is just an administrative role, or it should be just an administrative role — but because of all of the attention and all of that additional concern, well, that means that the county is now allocating me a new building, you know? That means that we're able to increase pay for my staff or increase our budget, and, you know, we have more resources coming towards us, and people are talking about the importance of investing in our elections. And that, it's starting to show because people are — I think that has been like a nonpartisan, I think everybody can agree we need more money and more infrastructure in elections because it's incredibly important, and I think it's starting to show.
Eric Fey: You've been listening to High Turnout Wide Margins, a podcast that explores local elections administration. I'm your host, Eric Fey alongside Brianna Lennon. A big thanks to KBIA and the Election Center for making this podcast possible. Our Managing Editor is Rebecca Smith. Managing Producer is Aaron Hay. Our Associate Producer is Katie Quinn, and our Digital Producer is Mark Johnson. This has been High Turnout Wide Margins. Thanks for listening.
